Denmark-www.pssagerrettgheder.dk

[Hugh]

Longstanding forum member James has recently told us of a new site he has set up to assist Danish passengers.

James tells about the site and the service it offers to passengers.
Danish residents should find this resource and offer of help of great assistance.

The link to my Danish language only web site is www.passagerrettigheder.dk
It is set up to inform passengers of how they can claim the EU 261/2004 compensation and the difficulties that may occur.
I have set up references to the ECJ judgements and other court rulings that may help with the claim.
As an extra service I provide a regularly updated list of long delays and cancellations to and from Danish airports
I also offer to help with the claim in same manner as flightmole to use the earnings to keep the site running.
The onus is however to use the site for DIY.

The site has only recently been set us but the allied service to passengers is already delivering positive results for passengers.

See this link http://flightmole.com/forum/showthread.php?t=762

[Hugh]

Hi James,

Following up on a previous thread conversation-maybe we could us this section of the forum to consider the view of the world from a Danish perspective.

I have been asked to assist a family who were due to travel from London to Copenhagen on an EasyJet flight. The flight was cancelled by EZ-there was no apparent re-routing offered to the family and they were obliged to stay in the UK and not visit relatives and friends for Christmas.

In fact the Father of the family is Swedish-but ow resiednt in the UK-but was routed to Copenhagen and would then travel to Sweden across the water there from Copenhagen.

Now what I'm thinking is this.

If I took a view that the family had a grievance against EZ-perhaps that EZ owed the family compensation-perhaps based upon at least the EZ compensation tariff-and EZ disagreed with my view what could we do?

Now this is where the Euro Small claims Procedure comes in.

If a Danish resident had a similar perceived grievance against EZ or another UK carrier-that Danish resident cant avail him/herself of the Euro Small claims procedure-as Denmark is still making its mind up as to whether that facilty should be available within Denmark.

However a Dane could presumably use the Euro Small Claims procedure against a UK resident carrier ( such as an EZ or BA).

Now the procedure is relatively new and untested (a bit like EC 261/2004) itself however it does provide a mechanism for a dispute to be place before a competent arbitrator ( in England and Wales a district judge).

It would be interesting to explore this further-for example if a Danish resident passenger had a grievance with a UK carrier-and that grievance could be assessed to explore its objective merits.

I'll post a bit more about the details of this family's flight-but maybe as this was flight going to Denmark that other Danish passengers were affected.

It provides scope for further avenues of dealing with such greivances that we should discus in more detail.

[Jamesr44]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Hi James,

Following up on a previous thread conversation-maybe we could us this section of the forum to consider the view of the world from a Danish perspective.

I have been asked to assist a family who were due to travel from London to Copenhagen on an EasyJet flight. The flight was cancelled by EZ-there was no apparent re-routing offered to the family and they were obliged to stay in the UK and not visit relatives and friends for Christmas.

In fact the Father of the family is Swedish-but ow resiednt in the UK-but was routed to Copenhagen and would then travel to Sweden across the water there from Copenhagen.

Now what I'm thinking is this.

If I took a view that the family had a grievance against EZ-perhaps that EZ owed the family compensation-perhaps based upon at least the EZ compensation tariff-and EZ disagreed with my view what could we do?

Now this is where the Euro Small claims Procedure comes in.

If a Danish resident had a similar perceived grievance against EZ or another UK carrier-that Danish resident cant avail him/herself of the Euro Small claims procedure-as Denmark is still making its mind up as to whether that facilty should be available within Denmark.

However a Dane could presumably use the Euro Small Claims procedure against a UK resident carrier ( such as an EZ or BA).

Now the procedure is relatively new and untested (a bit like EC 261/2004) itself however it does provide a mechanism for a dispute to be place before a competent arbitrator ( in England and Wales a district judge).

It would be interesting to explore this further-for example if a Danish resident passenger had a grievance with a UK carrier-and that grievance could be assessed to explore its objective merits.

I'll post a bit more about the details of this family's flight-but maybe as this was flight going to Denmark that other Danish passengers were affected.

It provides scope for further avenues of dealing with such greivances that we should discus in more detail.

Hugh,
First of all I must state I am an aviator and my legal knowledge is limited to the EC 261/2004 regulation, so the below statements are only from my own experiences.
You hit the nail on the head as to one of the problems with Denmark not being a fully fledged member of the EC.
We do have a small claims court , but not crossborder.
A non Danish resident would have to use local legal representation to claim at the small claims court with a possible loss of about Euro 200 if the case is lost.
If the claim is straight forward and has preceding court judgements I would not hesitate to use the Danish NEB.
For 2009 the Danish CAA acting as NEB had 106 EC 261/2004 case claims.
56 of the claims were deemed in favour for the passenger.
As the only country within the EC Denmark has adopted the EC regulation no. 261/2004 as part of the national law and therefore you will be granted free
process at a local court.However I think the NEB will try to apply some pressure on the operating air carrier to comply with the regulation, in order not to end up in court.If the air carrier does not agree with the opinion of the Danish NEB they can at their own expense appeal to the Danish court in the region of the destination airport.
So in short if it is a clear cut case, claim it with the Danish NEB.
The Euro Small claims is not available for residents in Denmark.
I do think however using the small claims court in the UK would be the more likely choice as I gather the departure point was a UK airport.

Take a look at C-204/08 Peter Rehder v Air Baltic Corporation.
It gives the passenger right to choose legal proceedings at his choice of either the departure point or the destination.

In Denmark it is possible to make court claims against foreign air carriers that operate to or from airports within Denmark.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Jamesr44

Hugh,
First of all I must state I am an aviator and my legal knowledge is limited to the EC 261/2004 regulation, so the below statements are only from my own experiences.
You hit the nail on the head as to one of the problems with Denmark not being a fully fledged member of the EC.
We do have a small claims court , but not crossborder.
A non Danish resident would have to use local legal representation to claim at the small claims court with a possible loss of about Euro 200 if the case is lost.
If the claim is straight forward and has preceding court judgements I would not hesitate to use the Danish NEB.
For 2009 the Danish CAA acting as NEB had 106 EC 261/2004 case claims.
56 of the claims were deemed in favour for the passenger.
As the only country within the EC Denmark has adopted the EC regulation no. 261/2004 as part of the national law and therefore you will be granted free
process at a local court.However I think the NEB will try to apply some pressure on the operating air carrier to comply with the regulation, in order not to end up in court.If the air carrier does not agree with the opinion of the Danish NEB they can at their own expense appeal to the Danish court in the region of the destination airport.
So in short if it is a clear cut case, claim it with the Danish NEB.
The Euro Small claims is not available for residents in Denmark.
I do think however using the small claims court in the UK would be the more likely choice as I gather the departure point was a UK airport.

Take a look at C-204/08 Peter Rehder v Air Baltic Corporation.
It gives the passenger right to choose legal proceedings at his choice of either the departure point or the destination.

In Denmark it is possible to make court claims against foreign air carriers that operate to or from airports within Denmark.

James lets break this down.

We should first compare and contrast the operation of the Danish NEB and the UK NEB.

Would the Danish NEB only accept a complaint for consideration if the flight is departing from a Danish airport?
This appears to be the apportionment of responsibility as agreed generally between NEBs.



Lets take the case of a flight London-Copenhagen.

The passenger-say-is a Danish resident going home to Denmark.

Would the Danish NEB accept a complaint from the Danish citizen/resident for that flight-or would they simply refer it back to the UK NEB-the AUC?

[Jamesr44]

Originally Posted by admin

James lets break this down.

We should first compare and contrast the operation of the Danish NEB and the UK NEB.

Would the Danish NEB only accept a complaint for consideration if the flight is departing from a Danish airport?
This appears to be the apportionment of responsibility as agreed generally between NEBs.



Lets take the case of a flight London-Copenhagen.

The passenger-say-is a Danish resident going home to Denmark.

Would the Danish NEB accept a complaint from the Danish citizen/resident for that flight-or would they simply refer it back to the UK NEB-the AUC?

The Danish NEB according to their own information would accept the complaint as it is a flight to or from Denmark. If it is a flight not departing or arriving in Denmark the NEB would assist with translating the complaint and forwarding it to the NEB concerned.
In my own opinion I would say that as the complaint can be brought to the regional court either at the departure or destination airport it is up to the passenger to choose the region for the complaint.
I can also not see why the residence of the citizen should be a factor .
The EC regulation as I read it only relates to the places involved with where the incident took place.Many EC countries have common borders and residents will cross the border to the nearest airport if it serves their purpose.
So these residents should have the same rights as the residents of the region where the airport is situated.

[Hugh]

Originally Posted by Jamesr44

The Danish NEB according to their own information would accept the complaint as it is a flight to or from Denmark. If it is a flight not departing or arriving in Denmark the NEB would assist with translating the complaint and forwarding it to the NEB concerned.
In my own opinion I would say that as the complaint can be brought to the regional court either at the departure or destination airport it is up to the passenger to choose the region for the complaint.
I can also not see why the residence of the citizen should be a factor .
The EC regulation as I read it only relates to the places involved with where the incident took place.Many EC countries have common borders and residents will cross the border to the nearest airport if it serves their purpose.
So these residents should have the same rights as the residents of the region where the airport is situated.

Well that is interesting-as I understand it the UK's NEB would only consider dealing with complaints itself that arise out of flights departing the UK (or at least the UK less Northern Ireland-that has its own body).

Therefore a UK resident who had a complaint regarding a flight departing the UK could present the claim to the Danish NEB-or the UK's NEB?


I don't think residence would be relevant to the NEB's acceptance of dealing with a claim-but residence is relevant to the Euro Small Claims Procedure.

The interesting aspect of the Euro Small Claims procedure-is the relative speed of the procedure-and that it is designed primarily to be a written procedure.

The other interesting factor is the issue of legal costs and how far those costs may be recovered. This is relevant both in terms of the loser paying the winner's costs and vice versa.

This is what distinguishes the ESCP procedure from the domestic small claims procedure available to passenger in a court in England and Wales.

There are even further apparent differences.

One relates to the right of appeal. Is there a right of appeal in a particular jurisdiction.

Now I would need to check this further because there may be even more apparent cross border differences/anomolies.

For example there appears to be a right of appeal in respect of a decision from the ESCP in England and Wales (and Scotland)-but apparently not in Northern Ireland!

[Jamesr44]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Well that is interesting-as I understand it the UK's NEB would only consider dealing with complaints itself that arise out of flights departing the UK (or at least the UK less Northern Ireland-that has its own body).

Therefore a UK resident who had a complaint regarding a flight departing the UK could present the claim to the Danish NEB-or the UK's NEB?


I don't think residence would be relevant to the NEB's acceptance of dealing with a claim-but residence is relevant to the Euro Small Claims Procedure.

The interesting aspect of the Euro Small Claims procedure-is the relative speed of the procedure-and that it is designed primarily to be a written procedure.

The other interesting factor is the issue of legal costs and how far those costs may be recovered. This is relevant both in terms of the loser paying the winner's costs and vice versa.

This is what distinguishes the ESCP procedure from the domestic small claims procedure available to passenger in a court in England and Wales.

There are even further apparent differences.

One relates to the right of appeal. Is there a right of appeal in a particular jurisdiction.

Now I would need to check this further because there may be even more apparent cross border differences/anomolies.

For example there appears to be a right of appeal in respect of a decision from the ESCP in England and Wales (and Scotland)-but apparently not in Northern Ireland!

Just a quick note:
I must state that the Danish NEB on thier website state they only handle claims for aircraft departing from airports in Denmark or arriving on EC member state carriers from non EC member states.??
However the website is not updated very regularly with respect to the passenger rights ? As I see it if the case C-204/08 Peter Rehder v Air Baltic Corporation contradicts the practice of only handling the mentioned flights.
I will see if I can find the written documentation for my previous stand.

[Hugh]

Originally Posted by Jamesr44

Just a quick note:
I must state that the Danish NEB on thier website state they only handle claims for aircraft departing from airports in Denmark or arriving on EC member state carriers from non EC member states.??
However the website is not updated very regularly with respect to the passenger rights ? As I see it if the case C-204/08 Peter Rehder v Air Baltic Corporation contradicts the practice of only handling the mentioned flights.
I will see if I can find the written documentation for my previous stand.

The NEBs appear to have carved out guidelines between themselves as to which NEB should handle a "complaint"-i.e that NEB's (as a minimum?) deal with complaints for flights leaving their terrritory.

There may be nothing stopping an NEB going beyond that minimum "responsibility".

This is different from the Rehder ruling-this is grown up law dealing with legal jurisdiction relevant to EC 261/2004.

Now moving this forward if the Danish NEB might say to the Danish pasenger ( even if the Danish passenger was resident in Denmark) that the Danish Passenger would need to address his "complaint" to the UK NEB-if the flight departed from a UK airport.

The UK NEB could deal with that complaint as and how it chose to-and was capable of dealing with the "complaint".

However, if the carrier was UK resident-say easyJet or BA-the Danish pasenger could bring a legal claim (under EC 261/2004) before a court-according to Rehder either within the UK or Denmark.

Therefore the Danish passenger might have a choice of where to bring court proceedings.

The next question is which is the better all round choice for the passenger.

Part of that choice ( and thence whether the passenger was able to use the ESCP) would involve the residence of the passenger.

[Jamesr44]

Originally Posted by Hugh

The NEBs appear to have carved out guidelines between themselves as to which NEB should handle a "complaint"-i.e that NEB's (as a minimum?) deal with complaints for flights leaving their terrritory.

There may be nothing stopping an NEB going beyond that minimum "responsibility".

This is different from the Rehder ruling-this is grown up law dealing with legal jurisdiction relevant to EC 261/2004.

Now moving this forward if the Danish NEB might say to the Danish pasenger ( even if the Danish passenger was resident in Denmark) that the Danish Passenger would need to address his "complaint" to the UK NEB-if the flight departed from a UK airport.

The UK NEB could deal with that complaint as and how it chose to-and was capable of dealing with the "complaint".

However, if the carrier was UK resident-say easyJet or BA-the Danish pasenger could bring a legal claim (under EC 261/2004) before a court-according to Rehder either within the UK or Denmark.

Therefore the Danish passenger might have a choice of where to bring court proceedings.

The next question is which is the better all round choice for the passenger.

Part of that choice ( and thence whether the passenger was able to use the ESCP) would involve the residence of the passenger.

Sorry for not answering earlier, it seems I have even less time as pensioner or maybe I am just getting lazy.
My experience and understanding fo the Danish NEB (Danish CAA) is that the will only provide a written non legaly binding declaration to the parties invloved. As the EC 261/2004 is actaul Danish law it must be handled by a court trial if the parties still disagree. The declaration from the NEB is however a nearly certain pass to free trial and representation if it is in your favor. Even if you decide to take legal proceedings with the air carrier without the consent of the NEB you will be required to have their statement for the trial proceedings.
My argument is therefore that the C-204/08 case also applies to the NEB as the NEB is an unavoidable instans for a preliminary hearing before a court trial and must be considered as part of the legal proceedings.
Why not just try it , they can only revert you to the British NEB unless you are only able to claim at one instance at a time. I refer here to claiming legal proceedings while the NEB is handling your case.Also note the EC 204/08 is a recent verdict from 9. juli 2009. So if this is at a later time the the NEB´s decision for their handling methods, their agreement may be overuled?

[Jamesr44]

Originally Posted by Jamesr44

Sorry for not answering earlier, it seems I have even less time as pensioner or maybe I am just getting lazy.
My experience and understanding fo the Danish NEB (Danish CAA) is that the will only provide a written non legaly binding declaration to the parties invloved. As the EC 261/2004 is actaul Danish law it must be handled by a court trial if the parties still disagree. The declaration from the NEB is however a nearly certain pass to free trial and representation if it is in your favor. Even if you decide to take legal proceedings with the air carrier without the consent of the NEB you will be required to have their statement for the trial proceedings.
My argument is therefore that the C-204/08 case also applies to the NEB as the NEB is an unavoidable instans for a preliminary hearing before a court trial and must be considered as part of the legal proceedings.
Why not just try it , they can only revert you to the British NEB unless you are only able to claim at one instance at a time. I refer here to claiming legal proceedings while the NEB is handling your case.Also note the EC 204/08 is a recent verdict from 9. juli 2009. So if this is at a later time the the NEB´s decision for their handling methods, their agreement may be overuled?

Further to my statemnet above I qoute c-204/08:
which is the operating carrier, the court having jurisdiction to deal with a claim for compensation founded on that transport contract and on Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91, is that, at the applicant's choice, which has territorial jurisdiction over the place of departure or place of arrival of the aircraft, as those places are agreed in that contract.

The court (not necessarily a civil court) is in Denmark the NEB appointed by the Government. The civil court is only implied if the parties do not agree to the decision of the NEB.

merriam-webster definition of a court :
a faculty or agency of judgment or evaluation <rest our case in the court of world opinion — L. H. Marks>